When I decided to study gender, I thought that looking at transsexual people would provide some insight into what we mean by gender. The reasoning for this is that such people are starting in one gender and then moving to the other gender. I gained access to a number of transsexual spaces and observed, in most cases being accepted as transsexual. The acceptance happened because I have allowed people to believe that I am in the same position as them.
The more I have observed, the more confused I have become. I plan to use this blog to capture much of my rambling thoughts. Consequently, there will be conflicts between different posts as I develop the ideas. At this stage, it occurs to me that transgender people have merely confused the whole gender issue. For reasons I will go into another day, gender is complex, including internal feelings, external perception, personal presentation and, of course, biology.
I was fortunate in having a good friend who was undergoing transition, providing me with a very intimate insight into the process of transition (the actual process of crossing the gender “divide”). I was fortunate to watch her from prior to transition through the social and medical aspects of her transition. I was also able to attend a number of the medical appointments she went to and was with her when she underwent sex reassignment surgery (SRS). The actual term for the genital surgery is hotly debated by transsexuals, but I use this as a factual term: Sex refers to the bodily definition of gender based upon genitals; reassignment because the genitals are being reconstructed to the gender they identify with and surgery is obvious. The dual meaning of the word sex is part of the rejection of this term, but the same people also reject the term transsexual as it also includes the same word. The problem is that there is confusion over sex referring to the act of sex as well as referring to the genital configuration.
As I became more involved in these groups, I was amazed to discover a massive range of people, covered by a more general term transgender. This covers not only transsexuals, but also transvestites, cross dressers and so on. In fact, it has been used to define anyone who does not wholly identify with the gender assigned to them at birth. Looking more deeply, I discovered that there were people who merely adopt female presentation, but in a generally exaggerated mode. I initially defined this as being people who part time adopt a female gender role, however, I rapidly discovered that this was not strictly correct. In fact, they do not tend to adopt a complete female gender role, but only certain elements. I will consider this in more detail later, however, it appeared that they used clothes, hair and make-up in an exaggerated manner to counter an inability to accurately adopt other elements of the female gender role, such as mannerisms. I had identified a group of people whose experience of moving to the female gender was entirely based on appearance. What was more surprising was that they adopted the appearance generally used by young women as seen in many popular magazines. This was at odds with their own bodily structure and also their age. They were not seeking to blend with women of their own age and social grouping, but were attempting to adopt the hyper sexualised images presented through the media.
This was not what I was looking for. These people generally did not adopt the other gender full time and this was a position unique to men: I did not find any women who adopted a male appearance part time in the same manner. So I decided to limit my observations to those who live in the other gender to their birth gender full time. But this proved difficult. I came across a number of people who decided that they would not undergo any medical transition, but would live in the other gender full time. In the case of a number of trans men, I discovered that they were unimpressed with the surgery available to them and consequently decided to avoid phallus construction, but did undergo processes such as mastectomy to create a more male chest. But I found a group, primarily trans women, who had made a conscious choice not to undertake hormone or surgical treatments.
I had found various groups:
• Those who seek to adopt a female gender appearance part time
• Those who seek to live their lives full time without any medical treatment
• Those who seek to live their lives wholly in the other gender, undergoing medical treatment.
It is this final group that I was most interested in. The idea was that by analysing the gender experience of these people both before and after transition, it would be possible to gain an insight into the differences by analysing the changes they had undergone.
Even then, it got more complicated. I had assumed that a trans woman was a person assigned male at birth who wished to be accepted by society as a woman, but I was wrong.
In fact, I found that a number of such people did not consider that they were wholly female, but a combination of both male and female and they wished to be acknowledged outside the gender binary. This was illustrated by an Australian case of "norrie mAy-Welby" (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/03/11/australia-is-first-to-recognise-non-specified-gender/) where, following transition and SRS, Norrie decided zie was neither male nor female and sought to have this legally recognised. Zie is not the only person who expressed this view, although no other cases have been legally pursued that I could identify at this stage. A number of people expressed their view that they were 60/40 female/male or 80/20 female/male, but that they were not 100% female or male.
That latter point is one that I have always believed: we are not all entirely male or female, but I would have put it slightly differently by stating that we all display a range of stereotypical male and female gender role elements.
This left me rather confused. I had made an assumption that transsexual people would experience gender in a much more intense manner than most other people. The reasoning for this, was that the process of changing from one gender to the other is so complex and emotional that there would need to be an extreme issue to cause someone to undertake such a change. To discover that some people are undertaking this course of action because they simply do not feel wholly of their birth gender seemed somehow to contradict their expressed reasoning.
This made me consider further what people were actually doing.
My experience of the gay scene back in the 1980s & 1990s saw me mixing with a massive variety of different lesbians and gay men. What I was amazed at was a certain group who took everything to total extremes. There was a pretty universal understanding that these people were actually taking these extreme positions just to gain attention. By shocking people, they were achieving a personal aim. The people they set out to shock were often their own family, but also included the general public. I have seen the same techniques within the general population, but it was extreme within these the gay scene. I knew people who were unhappy if they had gone to all that trouble and people just ignored them.
I called upon this idea and questioned if this “shock” desire may be behind the behaviour of some transgender people. Is the actual aim of their behaviour to be the ultimate in shock to their family, or to the public at large? An interesting idea, adding yet another dimension to what is going on.
Hi Red,
ReplyDeleteMay I ask why you did not simply identify yourself within those "transsexual spaces" as you call them, and ask your questions? Simply lurking in forums seems a little 'underhand' to me and skew's your data somewhat, in that the only information you receive is from the vocal and outgoing minority of the membership of such spaces.
I can assure that the group of women you were/are seeking do exist. We do not want to march and wave banners proclaiming our trans nature. We do not haunt the multitude of online spaces and forums, we are too busy trying to get on with and live our lives. While not denying or seeking to conceal our past's, we simply want to be accepted as the women we feel and know ourselves to be. We wish merely to be just another woman, one amongst millions (with maybe just a mite more unusual past than some).
Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions you feel I might be able to help answer.
Warm Regards,
Nicola Cowie
I joined a local support group open to partners and friends. They made assumptions about me which I had not realised, hence unintentional infiltration. I went to a number of seminars supporting trans people sometimes alone and sometimes accompanying a friend and there are a number of public trans groups, or at least with publicly viewable areas. Nothing untoward, I am afraid.
ReplyDeleteI assumed that people who have experienced life in one social gender role and then in the other social gender role would be able to assist in explaining the differences.
The reality is far different.
The transgender group includes such a variety of different people that there does not seem to be a consensus as to even what such people desire.
You mention wanting to be "just another woman", but that was not the majority view. I had assumed it was as that is what I experienced from my friend.
Many people spoke about the importance of sex, others about the desperation to look like some celebrity, others clearly had major psychological issues. The transgender community is so varied that the desires and needs are immensely disparate. Being a woman is something they could not even explain - what is a woman? According to many responses I have seen to that question, it is related to clothes and makeup and body shape: a different response to that given by cis women.
This meant that my background research was flawed as there is no cohesive group from which to draw a sample for properly focused research.
Perhaps, as you imply there is a subgroup that is just women, but how can this subgroup be identified from such a diverse super-group?
Seems to me that you are confusing transsexuals with the transgender crowd. Which is typical. The straights call us gay and the gays call us straight. And those who prefer to not understand call us transgender.
ReplyDeleteWe are transsexuals which as simple as possible means we were born with the brain of one sex and the body of another.
Male to Female have a brain of a woman and the body of a man. Femal to male have a brain of a man and the body of a woman.
We do not change genders as we are already the gender we were born with. It is out bodies we are changing.
There is proof of this as many prefer to not believe that the brains of men and women are different. But as time move on the doctors and scientists are finding out that there are MANY differences.
You can even download a copy of some of the proof that MtF transsexuals are REALLY women and so can never be considered men here
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/reprint/85/5/2034
It is a pdf file so might take a few seconds.
Also for more info on differences
http://ts-si.org/biology/20666-sex-based-genetic-differences-found-in-prenatal-brain.html
They even found a gene to prove transsexuals are not like others
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm
Anyhow my point is that the things you said about transsexuals by lumping them in with the transgendered group shows a total lack or due diligence.
We are not the same as them and never have been and never will be.
We are simply people with the brain of femals in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.
We are transseuxals and never have and never will change genders. I am a female, always have been and always will in spite of having the body of a man. I can never change genders because to do so would mean I would have to change my brain not my body.
Just as breasts and uterus etc do not make a woman a woman. Neither does a penis and testicles or lack there of by accident or whatever make a man a man.
It is this silly notion that makes people think we want to change genders. It is nonsense.
Stephenie Mace
Hi Stephanie.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment.
I asked a large number of women who have transitioned and they described themselves as transgendered. One major exception was a close friend of mine who refuses to acknowledgethe terms transsexual or transgendered, pointing out that she is just a woman born with a birth defect.
If you are right about transsexuals and transgendered being different, that is fine, but I used a label given to me. As I understood it, the people concerned were women who had transitioned to live full time in a female gender role and insist on using transgender rather than transsexual because of the association of the latter with "sex".
I could not care what terms are used, but I think the communities covered by these terms need to get their act together to decide what means what. If I am suffering from informed confusion, is it any wonder that the general public are at a total loss? I am told that transgendered people are just a part of a wider gender variant community that includes transvestites, drag kings, drag queens, cross dressers, non-gender identifying individuals, along with transgendered (or transsexual or whatever) people. See the confusion - pick your label.
Of course, you are entirely misunderstanding gender - your physical body may be used to decide your sex, your gender identity may come from your brain, but your gender role is the social perception of you and that is what is changing.
I assume you primarily adopted a male gender role before your transition and a female gender role post transition? That is what is changing - your relationship with the world.
Your gender identity may always have been female, you may be male sexed (I have no idea), but from the use of a socially defined female name, I assume you are adopting a female gender role. That is your relationship with the world.
Your sex may cause you issues when naked, and your gender identity may cause you internal discomfort, but I am not concerned about those issues, they are for you to resolve. What I am concerned about is the relationship people have with the world because of their gender role.
One question (I assume from your post that you transitioned?) - is your relationship with the world the same now while presenting in a female gender role as it was when you presented in a male gender role?
But do not make the claims about brain sex without including all the research on brain sex. There is a study that demonstrates how estrogen therapy changes the structure of the brain. Male to Female transgendered people were scanned prior to estrogen therapy and again over a period of time following estrogen therapy and their brains had changed. Statistically significant results were achieved linking the changes to the estrogen therapy. Your brain is changed by your estrogen therapy. Can you be so certain that it was always female? The studies currently do not stack up so you need to make sure you quote all the research rather than just that to make your point. I know about all of these studies and also the work of Eric Vilain which puts an entirely different perspective, by challenging the very notions of physical sex.
The study showing the effect of estrogen therapy in changing the brain was reported in the European Journal of Endocrinology under the title:
"Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure" by "Hilleke E Hulshoff Pol, Peggy T Cohen-Kettenis1, Neeltje E M Van Haren, Jiska S Peper, Rachel G H Brans, Wiepke Cahn, Hugo G Schnack, Louis J G Gooren2 and Rene´ S Kahn", "Department of Psychiatry, Rudolf Magnus Institute of Neuroscience, University Medical Center Utrecht, A01.126, Heidelberglaan 100, 3584 CX Utrecht, The Netherlands, 1Department of Medical Psychology and 2Department of Endocrinology, VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands"
Hi Red,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response.
From having talked with your friend and reading your response I can better see now what you are trying to do.
As you no doubt have discovered much the same as LGBT is an umbrella term covering a wide range of people, the T (for trans) is also a little umbrella all of it's own. This little single letter does indeed cover a wide array of people who at first glance share only the single attribute of in some way transgressing or transcending in someway, societies expected gender presentation, behaviour and roles. This includes such identidies as cross dressers, transvestites, drag queens, drag kings, gender queer, third gender, twin spirit, bi-gendered, transgender, transsexuals, etc. SO yes, there are plenty of labels there for people to pick. It is also further complicated that in the same words have different meanings an connotations in different part of the world. Transsexual for instance, in the USA has come to have distinct pornographical conotations, whilst here in Europe transgender tends to be used as a term for a full time transvestite. The relativley new term 'trans' seems to be the closest thing to an umbrella term that is acceptable to all.
As a community, trans people are approx 15-20 years behind the LGB community in terms of self-knowledge, activism and organisation. As a community it has suffered massive stigma in the past and indeed still does today. Though the situation has improved somewhat recently here in Europe, other places such as the USA, South America and most places in the 3rd world still attach massive stigma to trans people (indee to all LGBT people). A history of such stigmatisation is bound to and indeed has, left scars on the trans community. This is reflected in the way in which various parts of the community seek to mitigate that stigma by the seperation from and denigration of other parts. Some seek the legitisiation of the 'medical diagnosis' and 'physical etiology' in order to justify themselves and mitigate their stigma. Internalised transphobia I'm afraid is an all too common occurance within the trans community and it is going to take time to heal. We have to put behind us the broken legacy of John Money and his discredited theory of gender identity. We have to move past the pathologization of sex and gender variance as propounded by Blanchard, Bailey and Zucker. Society as a whole (trans people included) are going to have to get past this "2 sizes fits all" attitude and accept that people come in all shapes, sizes, colours and types.
Sorry for the long winded answer, but finally in answer to your original question about noticing a difference in interaction between with the world and myself pre and post transition? Yes there has been several noted differences that upon reflection I could put down to my altered gender presentation. Whether or not these could be put down to my being physical form's limitations (I am 6'2" and well outside the norm for natal female height) I do not know.
The most immediate things that spring to mind that I have noticed post transition are...
1) People certainly feel free to look, stare even at me now. They even maintain the stare when I look back and even make eye contact. It is almost as if they are looking at me but not seeing ME, just my presentation.
2) What I wear, how I look now seem to have become legitimate subjects of conversation in some cases.
3) In technical meetings I tend ot find that I have to argue more for my point of view and justify my arguments a lot more.
Please feel free to contact me in email (I think your friend has my email address) if you would like more details. I also know several transwomen both here in the UK and in the USA (where my wife and I lived for the past 6 years) who simply have transitioned and gone on with their lives.
Warm Regards,
Nicola
I would have ,liked a link to the information to look at it more thoroughly.
ReplyDeleteAlso of course hormones change the brain just as they change th body. But the gender still stayed the same. The brain gender of the MtF transsexuals was female before the hormones and was female after the hormones.
If you had read the article I linked you to you would have seen that the physical differences were there regardless of hormones and that if was that difference that made the persons gender male or female.
Adding drugs to alter the brain in no way changes the person from male to female gender.
Those people were female before and after the hormones 'changed' or 'altered' their brains.
So claiming that it was the hormones that made them female is silly.
Just as at menopause many women go through changes and some grow face air etc because of the male hormones taking over a bit. This however does not change the person from female to male.
They are still female, so the hormones do not MAKE you the gender that you are and more then having a mastectomy makes you a man or being castrated makes you a woman.
The study that I gave an actually link to showed that there is a part in the brain that helps to determine a persons self perceived gender from birth regardless of what their bodies look like or what hormones are in those bodies.
The link I gave also shows that you as a woman think that you are a a woman for the exact same reasons that I also think that I am a woman.
The BSTc part of the brain.
It is this that determines your self perceived gender. Not hormones.
Otherwise female athletes who lower thier body fat levels to the point that they stop menstruating and mess up their hormones for a while would think of themselves as men and then 'change' back to women after their fat levels rise again later.
This is nonsense and any female athlete would think you were crazy to suggest that they were men when in hard training.
The hormones in and of themselves may alter the brain but any drug can do that.
The hormones do not however determine if a person is male or female.
A link so that we also can see what you are saying would be nice.
Stephenie
Hi, I'm transsexual and I thought your blog was not so far off the mark as many thought. Partly it is the breadth of the label transgender. I am not one of those who rejects the transgender umbrella because I think it is useful. Whatever the term may have meant in the past it has come to encompass many different groups including transsexuals.
ReplyDeleteIf you had asked me what being a woman was for me being a woman is just being myself. This was not something I just woke up one day and decided to do, it is something I have felt from some of my earliest memories before I had any comprehension of sexual activity or even knew the biological difference between male and female. I just knew I was female. It wasn't about what clothes to wear, though I certainly wanted to wear female clothes. It wasn't about sex or who I love (I live as a woman who loves women here in Bangkok). I'm just me. And there is definitely a group that genuinely identify as women, and not as some stereotyped sex symbol or because they want sleep with everyone that walks past them. There are individuals within the community for whom this is a real and genuine feeling. I have never doubted my gender. I know I am a woman.
That said, I believe that the vast majority of people presenting themselves as transsexual do present themselves just as they did to you and as you describe in your replies to comments here. For me, I feel that the term transsexual has been appropriated by a non-transsexual majority. They elevate sex to the primary aspect. I never cared if I had sex again or not or ever had an orgasm when I had my surgery or even if I died. Because I at last would be me. Many I believe are bisexual and gay men who cannot deal with their sexual attraction to men except by changing their gender or living as a woman. There is rampant homophobia in the trans community much of it I think arising from these individuals. And some carry a sexual fetish to an extreme. Maybe transsexual women who consider themselves women and for whom it is not a fetish or a rationale for their sexuality are a minority, even a very small minority but they are there.
I have chosen to put some distance between myself and much of the transgender community. I have a few transsexual friends, some here some in other countries, but most of my friends here are lesbian women. It's just the group I identify with,.... I don't have a girlfriend (for some issues of trans background, age, etc, are issues they consider important). I have a friend with whom by mutual agreement the door is open if things should go that way. But that doesn't matter. Makes me a little sad, sometimes a bit lonely, but when my friend stays here with me and I tell her how handsome she is and she smiles I smile too. No sex, just mutual companionship so far. But I am me. I don't hide my past from people because I would rather start off relationships honestly.
I don't consider myself myself femme or butch, but in between. Most days I wear slacks or jeans and a tee shirt no bra, but if I'm going out I usually wear a skit and top that appeals to me and makes me look skinnier. I don't try to dress like a 20 year old, I don't try to look sexy, I just try to be me... I find myself drawn here to tomboys, what in the US at least used to be called stone butch. Seems most of my friends as well as most of my romantic interests have been in that group...
Anyway I don't disagree with you, especially, except to note that there is a group for whom this is just about being themselves, being women that usually they have always seem themselves as. As I said I have also chosen to distance myself from many in the trans community because of this, but I have met many who just see themselves as women including friends here and in the US. Just my rambling thoughts.... I will try to keep up with your blog in all subjects, as someone who considers herself a feminist it is interesting to me.
Stephanie,
ReplyDeleteI use printed articles, it is a little difficult to print links to them, hence I provided all the information you need to trace the article if you have access to the EJE.
The article you refer to is well known to me: it is the precursor the the one I referred to. Clearly you missed the phrase in there that all of the transsexuals had been treated with cross sex hormones. That in itself was the reason for the second study.
You need to learn not to dismiss research because it disagrees with your personal view.
You are clearly so desperately clinging to a need to medicalise your position that you will never be open to the reality. Consequently debate with you is pointless.
Look around you: gender is socially constructed. Gender identity and sex are not.
Granuaile, thank you.
ReplyDeleteIt seems you have understood the issue I faced.
Even in the group of people who have transitioned, I found such a vast array of differences. When they then started telling me that transvestites are just another form of gender variance in exactly the same way as transgender (those who have transitioned) and that those who transition do not want to be women: "What I am is very different from a woman, we're both female but not the same and I think its important to be seen as seperate and distinct, and I think its also important to draw boundries in order for one to relate properly to the other." That is copied directly from a publicly accessible forum.
If the transgender/transsexual/whatever community is in such total disarray, then how do you expect to gain the respect of the rest of the population?
Even the nature of the debate on here - so very negative from some people - highlights that problems are even greater: a failure to want to openly investigate the "condition".
I feel sorry for all of you as I see no easy resolution for you.
The problem arises I think from the ease with which people can obtain SRS, and the ease with which the system put in place by reputable therapists, surgeons, and other professionals can be circumvented or manipulated.
ReplyDeleteHave you read the book The Man Who Would Be Queen by J. Michael Bailey? While I disagree with his ultimate conclusions he faced this same problem in his research which led him to conclude that there are basically two groups within the transsexual community, effeminate gay men who cannot accept their sexuality or see becoming female as a means of attracting men (my experience is that not all are effeminate but some simply cannot accept their sexuality and seek to change gender rather than accept that they are gay men) and fetishists who take their fetish to the extreme of SRS. I think he is wrong in simply using these two classes though it would not surprise me if everyone of his subjects did not fall into one of these categories. Certainly the vast majority of those I have encountered in trans forums and such do. To a large extent they have overwhelmed the transsexual community.
In any case while I disagree with his ultimate conclusions, it is a book worth reading if you have not. Early on I was angered by the book, but as I encountered people in the community I found that there was a lot of truth in the book. I simply do not agree that there only two categories. Indeed you may have already read this book, though few in the transgender community would recommend it I think.
Good luck, ....
Ah ok I did NOT know that the articles were printed. And yes I can see the difficulty in linking to a piece of Paper LOL.
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else I am hoping that this has raised some awareness of the problems we face.
Thanks for your article and comments. I am sure someone will benefit from these. :)
As for myself I have already come under attack for daring to have an opinion in one of the forums I go to that has seen this. Such is the way of things for transsexual. Seems there is no solidarity and we are our own worse enemies and "never seem to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" or to hurt one another.
Thanks again for your article :)
Stephenie :)
Thanks again.
Just wanted to make clear I am not attacking anyone. I may have seemed a bit forward but it was not my intention to attack.
ReplyDeleteANyhow I do thank you for your article and basically if nothing else it has opened up the subject to more people and maybe helped someone understand better.
I found the fact you even allowed me a voice here refreshing and something that is not common to have happen.
For that I thank you :)
Often it is difficult to convey in words that are written what the intent is of a person saying a thing. My intent was for discussion not contention :)
I truly do thank you for the information here. :)
Stephenie :)
Stephenie,
ReplyDeleteYou said I found the fact you even allowed me a voice here refreshing and something that is not common to have happen.
I believe that regardless of differences in our opinions, you have the right to yours and I hope you respect my right.
I also believe in the freedom to express those views, and if I have given you the opportunity to do that, then that feels right.
I would only censor offensive comments, illegal comments, or comments like to cause serious hurt to an individual.
The debate has proved interesting.